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Hobadee 21 hours ago [-]
Where is all this love for coaster brakes coming from?! They are, IMHO, one of the worst brakes ever. They have caused me numerous spills and scraped knees (due to the rear wheel locking up and skidding out from under me) and have done the same to my kids. There is virtually no control over them, and they don't allow you to shift your weight around when standing on the pedals to go around sharp corners or off-road. (Nevermind trying to shift your weight backwards when stopping quickly)
I have hydraulic disc brakes on my bike, and they are the greatest thing ever! Yeah, they require maintenance, but totally worth it.
japanuspus 9 hours ago [-]
As the family bike maintainer in Scandinavia, hub gears and coaster brakes are a godsend: Simple, cheap, and the only wear item to replace after a winter driving in salty sludge is a cheap chain -- and this takes half the time if there are no brake cables to detach.
This might be a Nordic thing, but being able to handle rear wheel lockups is a necessary skill when driving on winter roads. Once you overlook a section of black ice, not even the nicest hydraulic disc brakes will be gentle enough.
fransje26 8 hours ago [-]
> Once you overlook a section of black ice, not even the nicest hydraulic disc brakes will be gentle enough.
My experience with black ice and bikes, is to unexpectedly fall flat on my face because the front wheel loses all grip. Without even getting to the point of trying to brake..
lstodd 6 hours ago [-]
That's a lowside. Turn very gently if weather invites ice (or wet autumn leaves which are about as creepy as ice), never use front brakes.
Locking and then suddenly reacquiring grip on the rear wheel causes highsides on motorbikes, it's when you fly out of the seat and into the oncoming 18-wheeler. But it's quite hard to do on bicycles.
Fronts are useful when you have to decelerate rapidly while travelling in straight line, but in turns you just don't touch them ever.
edit: and on a decent motorbike/scooter you learn to not use brakes except in emergency, 95% of all deceleration is handled by just dropping the throttle.
david-gpu 5 hours ago [-]
Braking while turning is a risky business indeed. You typically want to use both brakes at once to reduce the chance of skidding, but if you do lose grip on either wheel nonetheless, you better have quick reflexes and release both brakes.
Sheldon Brown talked about this [0]:
> Skilled cyclists use the front brake alone probably 95% of the time, but there are instances when the rear brake is preferred: slippery surfaces, bumpy surfaces, front flat, broken [front brake]
> When leaning in a turn, traction is shared between braking and turning. Using both brakes together reduces the likelihood that one wheel or the other will skid and dump you. The steeper you lean, the less you can brake, so moderate your speed before a curve. When you are leaning deeply, you need to release the brakes entirely.
> Using both brakes together can cause "fishtailing." If the rear wheel skids while braking force is also being applied to the front, the rear of the bike will tend to swing past the front, since the front is applying a greater decelerating force than the rear. Once the rear tire starts to skid, it can move sideways as easily as forward.
I broke some ribs a couple of years ago on a downhill trail due to fishtailing. I should have dismounted, but I had not realized that the surface had turned from gritty to muddy.
What he names "fishtailing" is what is known as "highside" in motorbike circles. When the rear wheel loses grip, it and the entire frame except the front fork moves sideways. When the rear wheel inevitably retains grip, the resulting force violently flips the whole. On a bicycle this is rare and survivable, on a 200+kg mc not very much so.
In a turn you either apply energy if that is at all possible (usually), or just steer. It is recommended to accelerate inside a turn, because that way you can better control grip on the rear due to not accidentally engine-braking (not applicable to bicycles), and because thrust on the rear wheel helps the bike into the turn (applicable to bicycles).
Braking in a turn is a last-effort thing, taken only if you are certain that it'll lessen damage from otherwise imminent crash.
Biking is traction/grip control at all times. Traction is always shared between steering and brake/accel. You do not want less control in a turn, and loss of traction means loss of steering.
So you do not ever brake in a turn.
You decelerate on a straight before it. If a turn goes bad for whatever reason, that means that a) you made a mistake entering it at the speed you did, and b) now you choose what to crash into, and then execute the crash while hoping that your protection holds, which might include hard front brake and a steering input so that you lowside feet (and bike) first into the obstacle. But not before.
So the first lesson of bike-riding is being aware at all times of available traction.
95% use of fronts follows: you only use them on straights, and there they are much more efficient than rears because the whole mass of you and bike enhances front wheel traction. cf. the wheelie.
david-gpu 3 hours ago [-]
I would separate cycling from riding motorbikes entirely. They are different enough in terms of mass, speed, and especially acceleration.
As an example, pedaling while turning is often a bad idea because of the risk of pedal strikes, so acceleration inside a curve is often out of the question. And braking obviously reduces the grip available for turning, so braking while turning is only done in an emergency situation. But if you are going to brake while turning, using only the rear brake is suboptimal on a bicycle.
kakacik 4 hours ago [-]
> edit: and on a decent motorbike/scooter you learn to not use brakes except in emergency, 95% of all deceleration is handled by just dropping the throttle.
There are 2 benefits of actually using brakes (smartly as comments say) - leaving deceleration to the motor wears it down much faster, and repairs are more complex/expensive than changing pads/disc of brakes. Second reason is more important - folks behind you know whats happening, thats why brake lights are so strong. Don't expect 100% of the folks watching you closely 100% of the time, thats incorrect and dangerous expectation. On bike you are the most fragile participant of the traffic, its in your interest to signal your behavior to others as clearly as possible.
wolrah 55 minutes ago [-]
> leaving deceleration to the motor wears it down much faster
Not in the slightest, and I have no idea where this idea even came from. Whatever amount of stress the engine and rest of the drivetrain is under even at maximum engine braking, it experiences significantly more under any hard acceleration. Even semi truck jake brakes that actually reconfigure the engine's air flow to generate even more deceleration forces than would otherwise be possible max out at a fraction of the acceleration powers that same engine is capable of producing.
The only part of a standard automotive drivetrain that has significant directional differences in strength/wear would be the differential gears, but even that difference isn't going to matter in anything close to normal use. If you're doing clutch drops in reverse that's another matter.
The biggest risk to anything drivetrain-related from engine braking would be badly shifting a manual transmission and either damaging the transmission itself or choosing the wrong gear and over-revving the engine.
The brake light thing I fully agree with you though. I love engine braking when I'm doing performance driving as much as the next guy, but I won't do it in traffic for anything more than holding speed on a downhill for that reason. Significant deceleration in traffic should always be accompanied by brake lights.
analog31 4 hours ago [-]
It's also a thing in the upper Midwest of the US. One trick is a studded winter tire in the front and a regular tire in back. The front tire keeps you in control without too much of a rolling resistance penalty. We have enough space here that we can afford to have dedicated bikes for winter riding. In the spring, I hose them down, spray on some light oil, and stow them away under a makeshift awning in the backyard.
Gualdrapo 21 hours ago [-]
In my experience hydraulic disc brakes require less maintenance than rim brakes.
Living on a hill (like I had to go up a ~150m 23% wall to get home, and go braking down it to go places) meant I had to spend frequently on rim brake shoes and, eventually, rims. The frequent rain and mud makes it to the rim brake shoes and diminish braking power if you don't keep them clean.
That doesn't happen with hydraulics - clean them with alcohol, bleed them once each year and you're set. I agree, they're the greatest thing ever.
VBprogrammer 9 hours ago [-]
> In my experience hydraulic disc brakes require less maintenance than rim brakes.
Cable operated disc brakes seem to be a sweet spot IMHO.
IslandRebel 2 hours ago [-]
Rim brakes last ages. I used to ride 100 miles a week easily up and down hill on my mountain bike V-brakes for 3 or 4 years and had to change the pads like maybe twice.
Maintenance of cantilever and v-brakes is changing the pads every so often and putting some oil/grease on the cable/replacing the cables. None of this is that difficult.
I don't understand why people pretend that lining up some pads, and then adjusting the cable is super difficult
> The frequent rain and mud makes it to the rim brake shoes and diminish braking power if you don't keep them clean.
People greatly exaggerate how much of an issue this is. I could lock up the wheels even in the wet and muck with V-brakes. TBH, You have to ride to the conditions anyway.
Swizec 20 hours ago [-]
> The frequent rain and mud makes it to the rim brake shoes and diminish braking power
I'll never forget when I was a kid (13 or so) going for a ride in the city during a downpour, slamming on the brakes because a pedestrian stepped out in front of me (mixed pedestrian/bike zone, no cars, we both assumed no-one else was dumb enough to be out), and ... nothing happened. Damn near shat my pants. Luckily the pedestrian saw me and jumped out of the way.
In retrospect that was too much downpour. Could literally see water spraying out my brakes. The hot cocoa after was fantastic tho
rconti 20 hours ago [-]
I've only once in my life worn out a set of rim brake pads
I wore out the thin, small disc brake pads on my gravel bike in the first ~2000 miles. It didn't even _occur_ to me that the sound I was hearing was my brake pads being completely gone on what was a basically-new bike.
toast0 18 hours ago [-]
> I've only once in my life worn out a set of rim brake pads
I wore one set out... But I bought a new old stock bike that was made the same year as me... the tubes were ok and the tires are fine, but the brakes wore through very quickly. Probably 200 miles or less.
andrew_lettuce 18 hours ago [-]
Worse, I've worn out a rim when the sidewall basically delaminated after a few thousand kms and gritty conditions. After the UCI allowed disc brakes on gravel racers and manufacturers switched it made a great style of bike just about perfect
flyinghamster 6 hours ago [-]
Rim brakes are even worse when you're riding a recumbent with 20" (406) wheels. Nothing like being over an hour from home and having a rim give out after hitting a bad bump. I'm very grateful that my trike has drum brakes and my MTB has mechanical discs.
CorrectHorseBat 21 hours ago [-]
Hydraulic rim brakes also exist and they are amazing too
perrygeo 20 hours ago [-]
> Where is all this love for coaster brakes coming from?!
Childhood nostalgia? They are indeed terrible brakes from a riding perspective. But a) no cables or pads to mess up, b) beginner friendly and c) skidding. Great for kids riding around the neighborhood, the only real purpose.
giglamesh 5 hours ago [-]
They can also serve an aesthetic purpose. For many years my daily rider was fixed, so no need for a rear brake. I got tired of riding fixed but also wanted to maintain the clean look of less cables and other visual clutter that comes with a brake - so a coaster seemed like a good enough option. I use my front (rim) break as my stopper and the coaster is just kind of a back-up or bad weather brake and for that purpose its worked great.
I'd love a disc up front, but as far as I know, the fork on a circa-1989 bike isn’t compatible with a front disc brake setup, making the upgrade challenging without welding.
kqr 6 hours ago [-]
I doubt they're actually that beginner friendly. My children switch between coaster brakes and hand-actuated rim brakes regularly (different sets of bikes in different locations) and they have preferred hand-actuated rim brakes since they started cycling.
They like it when the bike doesn't suddenly stop when they accidentally pedal a little backwards, something that happened particularly frequently when they were beginners.
They also like being able to prepare for the stop by taking their feet off the pedals and hovering them over the ground while they brake.
Kaliboy 18 hours ago [-]
The average bike in the Netherlands has coaster brakes.
It's also great for getting on tall bikes at a standstill, since you can lock the pedal and use it to step up, you do need to quickly start cycling though.
MisterTea 20 hours ago [-]
> They have caused me numerous spills and scraped knees (due to the rear wheel locking up and skidding out from under me) and have done the same to my kids.
Skill issue ;-) My first bike I learned to ride on was a BMX with coaster brakes that was part of the fun! Rip down the street then slam the pedal back to leave skid marks. And who didn't love slowing down a bit, then slamming the coaster brake while turning the handle bars to do a sick rear sideways skid. My next bike was also a BMX with a rotor and front/rear pegs. That lead to way more spills trying to do stunts on the pegs or spin the handle bars. Never got good at the stunts part.
Might have worked better for a smaller, lighter me but I would like to give coaster brakes a go again on a proper sized BMX.
tjoff 19 hours ago [-]
Sure but you can do it easier and with more control with any other type of brake,from the basic V-style rim brakes to hydraulic disc brakes.
toast0 18 hours ago [-]
At least on the bikes I had access to growing up, rim brakes were hard to adjust so you could easily lock up the wheels, but not drag when not applied... Especially if you had safety levers. V brakes hadn't been invented yet: we just had side pull or center pull.
Coaster brakes didn't tend to noticably drag and were easy to lock up.
When I got access to v-brakes, yeah you can lock those up no problem... Lots of fun. A little tricky to learn modulation with when you're coming from older style rim brakes though.
brikym 19 hours ago [-]
They're legally required in a lot of countries on small kids bikes and not easy to disable. I think the argument is that kids lack the strength to operate a hand brake effectively. Experts all seem to say that coaster brakes are terrible for safety and learning though.
andrew_lettuce 18 hours ago [-]
Hand strength is an issue with cheap, adult sized cable hand brakes but not an issue with smaller levers or even the cheapest hydraulic brakes.
The kids bikes that require them ate also made of mild steel and with more than my Enduro bike.
Don't buy a cheap, department store kids bike. You can get multiple kids through a quality bike and still sell it for like $100 less than you paid.
ninininino 18 minutes ago [-]
I believe there's a strong, slowly growing cultural backlash to interrelated concepts of planned obsolescence, design that assumes maintenance burden doesn't matter, durability and simplicity, and hatred for depreciation.
Coaster brakes are an example of a simpler design, that requires less maintenance, that are cheaper, that are poor in some environments like hills but are fine in flat areas.
Some would rather walk their bike down a hill but have a bike that never needs brake maintenance than to have better brakes that are a point of failure.
The same drive that pushes people to trying to build offgrid homes is slowly growing in spaces of material goods and home goods and such. Add environmentalism to it also.
to11mtm 17 hours ago [-]
TBH I don't care for hydraulic disc brakes much.
My -favorite- setup for Discs, at least use to be, Avid BB7s with Avid Speed Dial levers, with Flak Jacket Housings.
That combination was super simple to 'dial in' (Hydraulic brakes tend to be a lot more inconsistent on 'feel' unless you are very persistent about bleeding and know how to use a disc tuning fork) and honestly had a lot less overall drag than I've experienced with most hydraulic discs. Replacing cables is way easier than re-doing hydraulic lines, also you don't have to worry as much about overheating janking up your fluid. Only drawback is, yes, make sure your cables are set up right and clamped down good.
But yes, Coaster brakes suck, especially since 'failure' means either rebuilding the wheel or outright replacing, because nope, not gonna do that sort of hub job.
bluGill 20 hours ago [-]
They were not impossible to control. It wasn't easy, but you quick got used to it and got enough. Partially that was learning to plan a head so you didn't need to much control. Or you learn to enjoy drifting the back wheels.
andrew_lettuce 18 hours ago [-]
I agree with you, coaster brakes suck. And losing your brakes if the chains drops is really serious, especially because it tends to happen when you need brakes the most.
Cable disc brakes have come a very long way and there are some decent models that require very little maintenance and work great.
Also for every skid you get on a coaster brake I'll raise you a nose Endo with the front disc brake!
Hobadee 8 hours ago [-]
> Also for every skid you get on a coaster brake I'll raise you a nose Endo with the front disc brake!
I can slam on my front disc brakes and not endo. Step 1: shift your weight all the way to the back. (hang off the back of the seat). Step 2: have front suspension.
Weight shift is mostly enough on its own, but front suspension eats up whatever endo tendency is left.
TacticalCoder 18 hours ago [-]
> Also for every skid you get on a coaster brake I'll raise you a nose Endo with the front disc brake!
This guy fox!
andrewshadura 19 hours ago [-]
Incorrect. They're perfect for everyday utility cycling. You just need to learn to use them properly.
switchbak 18 hours ago [-]
Personally, I wouldn't want to ride a bike with only rear brakes - or do you also have a front brake with these?
fransje26 8 hours ago [-]
> or do you also have a front brake with these?
No, not necessarily.
I've been using bikes with only rear brakes for years and years as city bikes, and never had a braking problem.
On the other hand, I've borrowed many bikes with conventional rim brakes and invariably had (serious) braking issues because they would be badly adjusted.
locallost 7 hours ago [-]
What a weird comment. A lot of people posting their use case for them, personally never fell from them, and in the end don't get that about maintaining hydraulic disc brakes. There is literally nothing to maintain except rarely just replacing the pads or the discs.
TacticalCoder 18 hours ago [-]
We used to call coaster brakes "torpedo" when I was a kid and, yup, they're totally horrible.
If you've got coaster brakes I don't even know if you can learn to trackstand (you need to both slightly pedal forward and brake, and adjust by slightly pedaling backward): trackstand looks like you're idle but micro-adjustments are constantly happening.
Then I take it probably could wheelie a bicycle with coaster brakes but I fear it'd be hard: same things, you do micro-adjustements and they're not only done with the rear brake. I'm pretty sure I do pedal backward a bit when I do wheelies.
And when I readjust the position of my feet on a bicycle: I do it while backpedalling.
Last time I used a bike with coaster brakes I realized how dependent I became on being able to pedal backwards.
to11mtm 17 hours ago [-]
One of the earliest 'mountain biking' trails, before real mountain bikes existed, is called Repack because they were using Coaster brakes and you'd basically have to rebiuld/repack the coaster brake hub with grease after a run due to all the heat forcing the hubs to expel.
zoom6628 13 hours ago [-]
Brilliant for folks in flat cities riding to and from work. That's the environment in which they got popular 100y ago. For hills def need rim brakes or discs for flexibility of use. BMX racing in early 80s we used the lightest rim brakes and levers we could find. I had couple of times snapping the levers and even the brake arms before fitting with really strong machined aluminium ones which lasted me 3 years before I stopped riding.
deepsun 21 hours ago [-]
> The coaster brake also can be prone to locking up the wheels and causing the tire to skid. For kids this is an advantage, since they enjoy putting bikes into a sideways skid.
Damn well it was! I remember we used to play tag on bikes. But when we switched to hand brakes, it became impossible, as you need a free hand and speed control at the same time.
kqr 6 hours ago [-]
> But when we switched to hand brakes, it became impossible, as you need a free hand and speed control at the same
Did y'all have only one hand?
usrnm 5 hours ago [-]
Breaking with just the front wheel break is a very bad idea, so you always need the rear wheel hand to break
kqr 2 hours ago [-]
What makes the front wheel brake a bad idea? I almost exclusively use the front brake, because that's the one that'll actually stop me. (Source: when I used rim brakes I had to replace the front brake pad three times for every time I replaced the rear brake pad.)
I know some people use the rear wheel locking up as a way to sense when they have applied enough front brake, but that's not necessary. It's also possible to learn to sense that directly.
usrnm 56 minutes ago [-]
When going at a high speed, breaking hard with the front wheel alone can force the bike to rotate around it and the rider might enjoy a very short but very thrilling flight. Which I learned the hard way many years ago
SoftTalker 20 hours ago [-]
Yep I wore holes in several tires doing skids on my Schwinn when I was a young boy. My father got somewhat annoyed at it but used it as an opportunity to teach me how to change a tire and threatened to withold from my allowance the costs of any more tire replacements. I can't remember if that actually ever happened.
20 hours ago [-]
pmontra 5 hours ago [-]
The worst brakes I ever used. They were on a rental bike in a relatively remote area so it could be a matter of maintenance but I remember braking on a 10% slope to lose no more than 50 m of height. I had to lock both my thighs with the same strength I would have used to climb that hill. That vs flexing my fingers with the smallest muscles I have.
walthamstow 8 hours ago [-]
Coasters are great if you have good cycle infra, don't go very fast and don't have to go up or down hills. Which explains why they're so popular in NL.
bariumbitmap 21 hours ago [-]
> The disadvantages of coaster brakes are that the pedals cannot be adjusted while standing over the bicycle frame.
Another disadvantage not mentioned in the post is that with coaster brakes the pedals can get trapped by the kickstand. I don't remember the details because this was a long time ago, but I accidentally found myself in a situation where I couldn't pedal forward because the kickstand was in the way, and couldn't pedal backward because the brakes engaged. I don't remember how I fixed it.
thesuitonym 21 hours ago [-]
You can get out of this situation by rolling the bike backwards. Since the clutch is engaged it will also move the pedals in the reverse direction.
Thanks for unlocking that memory for me, it's been decades since I had to know that.
theodorethomas 47 minutes ago [-]
Yes, this is how I used the "handbrake" function to "park" on a steep uphill.
bariumbitmap 19 hours ago [-]
> You can get out of this situation by rolling the bike backwards
A-ha, I think that's why I ended up doing.
And thanks to you as well!
nkrisc 21 hours ago [-]
You can adjust the pedals while standing, it’s just awkward.
Take your weight off the seat, grab the back of the seat behind you and lift enough so the rear wheel loses traction and then you can push the pedals forward a bit.
Not ideal, but possible.
pak9rabid 21 hours ago [-]
Probably had to unbolt the brake bar to get it to spin freely backwards?
vjvjvjvjghv 21 hours ago [-]
I had this sometimes happen as a kid. I think we mostly solved it with some old fashioned violence.
willismichael 21 hours ago [-]
Either that or unbolt the kick stand.
Kaliboy 18 hours ago [-]
My friends. The kick stand stows by moving towards the back, making it possible to push it in during the normal cycling motion.
So if its in the way, they're backpedaling.
The way to solve it is to lift the bike's rear wheel and pedal like normal. That's it. No unbolting needed.
SoftTalker 20 hours ago [-]
On some bikes it was welded to the frame.
Gravityloss 6 hours ago [-]
I have biked with lots of coaster bikes and lockup has never been a problem. Like with a lot of things, you just need a little bit of humble attitude and trial and error to get the feel and then once you get it, it gets easier and easier. I don't think they lock up easily at all.
Same if you drive an unfamiliar car, it's more bumpy in the beginning but your brain will adapt, especially manual gears. I remember some cars did have terrible clutches and gearboxes and very low torque engines so it felt intimidating as a kid.
kqr 6 hours ago [-]
> Many of the front brakes installed on less expensive bicycles are worthless and give riders a false sense of security.
You should test the brakes before every ride! The front brake should make it very, very hard to push the bike forward. (The back brake should lock the wheel but the bike will continue to move forward.) That way, you can quickly tell whether they are worthless or provide true security.
c0balt 8 hours ago [-]
Coaster brakes are ime one of the best brakes for beginners/intermediates because they can be a reliable backup in addition to rim/disc brakes.
Had my rim brakes at least once lose a lot of efficacy during a large downpour and coaster brakes make a great backup for extra breaking power. They sure do like to lockup your rear wheel but that is still better than the alternative of only having very weak rear/front breaks.
vantassell 21 hours ago [-]
Biggest advantage is that they keep your hands free while braking.
wkjagt 5 hours ago [-]
I've always found it impressive that such a small diameter brake can brake so strong. Especially considering it's filled with grease.
dnemmers 18 hours ago [-]
"The coaster brake also can be prone to locking up the wheels and causing the tire to skid. For kids this is an advantage, since they enjoy putting bikes into a sideways skid. This seemingly is a one of the requisite skills for youthful riders, especially but not exclusively boys."
Very accurate.
edu 7 hours ago [-]
Used one once in a rental bike in Berlin, hated it all the time.
BorisMelnik 21 hours ago [-]
I love coaster brakes! its one of the few parts of a bicycle I cannot fix (that, and wheels/spokes/truing)
asdff 21 hours ago [-]
Wheel truing is easier than you'd guess. Watch the park tool video then just take your time. You can do it on your bike with some jerry rigged feelers (e.g zip ties) attached to your chain stays.
This is interesting, I recall having some of these as a kid.
I'd say the key drawback not mentioned is that, in many riding conditions (such as but not limited to riding when in close proximity to vehicles, riding in high wind, riding in proximity to severe drops or road discontinuities, riding with heavy loads, riding downhill with luggage encountering sharp bends, repositioning legs for a hard ascent, etc.) you cannot always freely alter your physical stance to apply additional pressure to the braking system (as it may upset other concerns) nor can you afford a short latency to reposition to your stronger leg before applying the brake (or a short burst of climbing on difficult terrain).
So while functional in most conditions, I'd say they are in fact objectively inferior in terms of latency and control and thus safety and utility in many realistic conditions.
What could be an improvement (and may have been made already) is a speed-gated clutch, that is to say, slow reverse is permissible but a burst above the gate speed enables braking. This could solve a minority of the issues in terms of control at the cost of complexity.
analog31 21 hours ago [-]
Daily urban commuter here. I've had coaster brakes in the past. Bendix, Shimano, and Sturmey-Archer. I was attracted to the simplicity and lack of exposed cables. All were well maintained, by me, on wheels that I built.
Concurring with what you say, I learned all of the obscure failure modes of coaster brakes the hard way. Today I would not put them on anything but a maybe a kids' bike or beach cruiser. You can't guarantee that your feet will be in the right place at the right time to stop the bike.
Among other failures, I've experienced coaster brake "fading" on a descent when my house was at the top of a hill.
Adding a front brake is an improvement but not a panacea. You really need reliable two-wheel braking. It's not just for redundancy but for actual control of the bike during hard braking.
deepsun 21 hours ago [-]
For cycle tourism I would have the coast brake AND a front wheel hand brake. Coast brake is much more resilient to elements (dirt/rain/oil), which is a major thing in bike tourism. And it's much more convenient to have one hand free to use a navigation tool, holding a camera, adjusting luggage, all while being in control of the braking.
contingencies 21 hours ago [-]
On resiliency, most people cycle tour with disk brakes. This is primarily because the additional weight of the luggage adds inertia to a downhill scenario necessitating a larger braking surface and better torque control. Whether using vee or disk brakes, you still get redundancy (two wheels means two brakes with two separate control systems) and any experienced cyclist is familiar with compensating for the loss or relative efficiency of two brakes in a failed, fouled or poorly tuned state. Occasionally adjusting a brake is not a big issue, nor is changing a brake pad. Packing a spare set of contact pads is normal in touring.
Few cycle tourists seem to optimize for using navigation tools or holding cameras while riding. Oldschool Europeans used to mount maps on their handlebar bags, but I haven't seen that in yonks. It might be common on a short-hop or produced-for-youtube thing, but to my mind it's not really the same mental space as touring, which anyone who has done it would understand: long distances, often daily goals or pre-nav, strong engagement with topographic change and natural environment = ~no need for while-riding lookups. Sure, if the road is well-surfaced and there's nobody on it, or it's a phone-photographed quickie: go for it. But unless it's a fleeting moment, most people I know would stop, have a drink, perform any lookups, maybe take a photo, then set off again. F=ma. Luggage means you have relatively large m. Fiddling with your camera while riding can be a bad idea.
jmclnx 21 hours ago [-]
These brakes are far more complicated then I was expecting. But do last forever.
imp0cat 5 hours ago [-]
Really the only downside is that they're prone to overheating in hilly terrain.
pak9rabid 21 hours ago [-]
Wow, I was just the other day wondering how these work. Far more complicated than I had expected, but a very cool mechanism!
tokai 8 hours ago [-]
If you are skidding out using a coaster brake something is seriously wrong with your bike. Time to go get a hub service done.
I have hydraulic disc brakes on my bike, and they are the greatest thing ever! Yeah, they require maintenance, but totally worth it.
This might be a Nordic thing, but being able to handle rear wheel lockups is a necessary skill when driving on winter roads. Once you overlook a section of black ice, not even the nicest hydraulic disc brakes will be gentle enough.
My experience with black ice and bikes, is to unexpectedly fall flat on my face because the front wheel loses all grip. Without even getting to the point of trying to brake..
Locking and then suddenly reacquiring grip on the rear wheel causes highsides on motorbikes, it's when you fly out of the seat and into the oncoming 18-wheeler. But it's quite hard to do on bicycles.
Fronts are useful when you have to decelerate rapidly while travelling in straight line, but in turns you just don't touch them ever.
edit: and on a decent motorbike/scooter you learn to not use brakes except in emergency, 95% of all deceleration is handled by just dropping the throttle.
Sheldon Brown talked about this [0]:
> Skilled cyclists use the front brake alone probably 95% of the time, but there are instances when the rear brake is preferred: slippery surfaces, bumpy surfaces, front flat, broken [front brake]
> When leaning in a turn, traction is shared between braking and turning. Using both brakes together reduces the likelihood that one wheel or the other will skid and dump you. The steeper you lean, the less you can brake, so moderate your speed before a curve. When you are leaning deeply, you need to release the brakes entirely.
> Using both brakes together can cause "fishtailing." If the rear wheel skids while braking force is also being applied to the front, the rear of the bike will tend to swing past the front, since the front is applying a greater decelerating force than the rear. Once the rear tire starts to skid, it can move sideways as easily as forward.
I broke some ribs a couple of years ago on a downhill trail due to fishtailing. I should have dismounted, but I had not realized that the surface had turned from gritty to muddy.
[0] https://sheldonbrown.com/brakturn.html
In a turn you either apply energy if that is at all possible (usually), or just steer. It is recommended to accelerate inside a turn, because that way you can better control grip on the rear due to not accidentally engine-braking (not applicable to bicycles), and because thrust on the rear wheel helps the bike into the turn (applicable to bicycles).
Braking in a turn is a last-effort thing, taken only if you are certain that it'll lessen damage from otherwise imminent crash.
Biking is traction/grip control at all times. Traction is always shared between steering and brake/accel. You do not want less control in a turn, and loss of traction means loss of steering.
So you do not ever brake in a turn.
You decelerate on a straight before it. If a turn goes bad for whatever reason, that means that a) you made a mistake entering it at the speed you did, and b) now you choose what to crash into, and then execute the crash while hoping that your protection holds, which might include hard front brake and a steering input so that you lowside feet (and bike) first into the obstacle. But not before.
So the first lesson of bike-riding is being aware at all times of available traction.
95% use of fronts follows: you only use them on straights, and there they are much more efficient than rears because the whole mass of you and bike enhances front wheel traction. cf. the wheelie.
As an example, pedaling while turning is often a bad idea because of the risk of pedal strikes, so acceleration inside a curve is often out of the question. And braking obviously reduces the grip available for turning, so braking while turning is only done in an emergency situation. But if you are going to brake while turning, using only the rear brake is suboptimal on a bicycle.
There are 2 benefits of actually using brakes (smartly as comments say) - leaving deceleration to the motor wears it down much faster, and repairs are more complex/expensive than changing pads/disc of brakes. Second reason is more important - folks behind you know whats happening, thats why brake lights are so strong. Don't expect 100% of the folks watching you closely 100% of the time, thats incorrect and dangerous expectation. On bike you are the most fragile participant of the traffic, its in your interest to signal your behavior to others as clearly as possible.
Not in the slightest, and I have no idea where this idea even came from. Whatever amount of stress the engine and rest of the drivetrain is under even at maximum engine braking, it experiences significantly more under any hard acceleration. Even semi truck jake brakes that actually reconfigure the engine's air flow to generate even more deceleration forces than would otherwise be possible max out at a fraction of the acceleration powers that same engine is capable of producing.
The only part of a standard automotive drivetrain that has significant directional differences in strength/wear would be the differential gears, but even that difference isn't going to matter in anything close to normal use. If you're doing clutch drops in reverse that's another matter.
The biggest risk to anything drivetrain-related from engine braking would be badly shifting a manual transmission and either damaging the transmission itself or choosing the wrong gear and over-revving the engine.
The brake light thing I fully agree with you though. I love engine braking when I'm doing performance driving as much as the next guy, but I won't do it in traffic for anything more than holding speed on a downhill for that reason. Significant deceleration in traffic should always be accompanied by brake lights.
Living on a hill (like I had to go up a ~150m 23% wall to get home, and go braking down it to go places) meant I had to spend frequently on rim brake shoes and, eventually, rims. The frequent rain and mud makes it to the rim brake shoes and diminish braking power if you don't keep them clean.
That doesn't happen with hydraulics - clean them with alcohol, bleed them once each year and you're set. I agree, they're the greatest thing ever.
Cable operated disc brakes seem to be a sweet spot IMHO.
Maintenance of cantilever and v-brakes is changing the pads every so often and putting some oil/grease on the cable/replacing the cables. None of this is that difficult.
I don't understand why people pretend that lining up some pads, and then adjusting the cable is super difficult
> The frequent rain and mud makes it to the rim brake shoes and diminish braking power if you don't keep them clean.
People greatly exaggerate how much of an issue this is. I could lock up the wheels even in the wet and muck with V-brakes. TBH, You have to ride to the conditions anyway.
I'll never forget when I was a kid (13 or so) going for a ride in the city during a downpour, slamming on the brakes because a pedestrian stepped out in front of me (mixed pedestrian/bike zone, no cars, we both assumed no-one else was dumb enough to be out), and ... nothing happened. Damn near shat my pants. Luckily the pedestrian saw me and jumped out of the way.
In retrospect that was too much downpour. Could literally see water spraying out my brakes. The hot cocoa after was fantastic tho
I wore one set out... But I bought a new old stock bike that was made the same year as me... the tubes were ok and the tires are fine, but the brakes wore through very quickly. Probably 200 miles or less.
Childhood nostalgia? They are indeed terrible brakes from a riding perspective. But a) no cables or pads to mess up, b) beginner friendly and c) skidding. Great for kids riding around the neighborhood, the only real purpose.
I'd love a disc up front, but as far as I know, the fork on a circa-1989 bike isn’t compatible with a front disc brake setup, making the upgrade challenging without welding.
They like it when the bike doesn't suddenly stop when they accidentally pedal a little backwards, something that happened particularly frequently when they were beginners.
They also like being able to prepare for the stop by taking their feet off the pedals and hovering them over the ground while they brake.
It's also great for getting on tall bikes at a standstill, since you can lock the pedal and use it to step up, you do need to quickly start cycling though.
Skill issue ;-) My first bike I learned to ride on was a BMX with coaster brakes that was part of the fun! Rip down the street then slam the pedal back to leave skid marks. And who didn't love slowing down a bit, then slamming the coaster brake while turning the handle bars to do a sick rear sideways skid. My next bike was also a BMX with a rotor and front/rear pegs. That lead to way more spills trying to do stunts on the pegs or spin the handle bars. Never got good at the stunts part.
Might have worked better for a smaller, lighter me but I would like to give coaster brakes a go again on a proper sized BMX.
Coaster brakes didn't tend to noticably drag and were easy to lock up.
When I got access to v-brakes, yeah you can lock those up no problem... Lots of fun. A little tricky to learn modulation with when you're coming from older style rim brakes though.
The kids bikes that require them ate also made of mild steel and with more than my Enduro bike.
Don't buy a cheap, department store kids bike. You can get multiple kids through a quality bike and still sell it for like $100 less than you paid.
Coaster brakes are an example of a simpler design, that requires less maintenance, that are cheaper, that are poor in some environments like hills but are fine in flat areas.
Some would rather walk their bike down a hill but have a bike that never needs brake maintenance than to have better brakes that are a point of failure.
The same drive that pushes people to trying to build offgrid homes is slowly growing in spaces of material goods and home goods and such. Add environmentalism to it also.
My -favorite- setup for Discs, at least use to be, Avid BB7s with Avid Speed Dial levers, with Flak Jacket Housings.
That combination was super simple to 'dial in' (Hydraulic brakes tend to be a lot more inconsistent on 'feel' unless you are very persistent about bleeding and know how to use a disc tuning fork) and honestly had a lot less overall drag than I've experienced with most hydraulic discs. Replacing cables is way easier than re-doing hydraulic lines, also you don't have to worry as much about overheating janking up your fluid. Only drawback is, yes, make sure your cables are set up right and clamped down good.
But yes, Coaster brakes suck, especially since 'failure' means either rebuilding the wheel or outright replacing, because nope, not gonna do that sort of hub job.
Cable disc brakes have come a very long way and there are some decent models that require very little maintenance and work great.
Also for every skid you get on a coaster brake I'll raise you a nose Endo with the front disc brake!
I can slam on my front disc brakes and not endo. Step 1: shift your weight all the way to the back. (hang off the back of the seat). Step 2: have front suspension.
Weight shift is mostly enough on its own, but front suspension eats up whatever endo tendency is left.
This guy fox!
No, not necessarily.
I've been using bikes with only rear brakes for years and years as city bikes, and never had a braking problem.
On the other hand, I've borrowed many bikes with conventional rim brakes and invariably had (serious) braking issues because they would be badly adjusted.
If you've got coaster brakes I don't even know if you can learn to trackstand (you need to both slightly pedal forward and brake, and adjust by slightly pedaling backward): trackstand looks like you're idle but micro-adjustments are constantly happening.
Then I take it probably could wheelie a bicycle with coaster brakes but I fear it'd be hard: same things, you do micro-adjustements and they're not only done with the rear brake. I'm pretty sure I do pedal backward a bit when I do wheelies.
And when I readjust the position of my feet on a bicycle: I do it while backpedalling.
Last time I used a bike with coaster brakes I realized how dependent I became on being able to pedal backwards.
Damn well it was! I remember we used to play tag on bikes. But when we switched to hand brakes, it became impossible, as you need a free hand and speed control at the same time.
Did y'all have only one hand?
I know some people use the rear wheel locking up as a way to sense when they have applied enough front brake, but that's not necessary. It's also possible to learn to sense that directly.
Another disadvantage not mentioned in the post is that with coaster brakes the pedals can get trapped by the kickstand. I don't remember the details because this was a long time ago, but I accidentally found myself in a situation where I couldn't pedal forward because the kickstand was in the way, and couldn't pedal backward because the brakes engaged. I don't remember how I fixed it.
Thanks for unlocking that memory for me, it's been decades since I had to know that.
A-ha, I think that's why I ended up doing.
And thanks to you as well!
Take your weight off the seat, grab the back of the seat behind you and lift enough so the rear wheel loses traction and then you can push the pedals forward a bit.
Not ideal, but possible.
So if its in the way, they're backpedaling.
The way to solve it is to lift the bike's rear wheel and pedal like normal. That's it. No unbolting needed.
Same if you drive an unfamiliar car, it's more bumpy in the beginning but your brain will adapt, especially manual gears. I remember some cars did have terrible clutches and gearboxes and very low torque engines so it felt intimidating as a kid.
You should test the brakes before every ride! The front brake should make it very, very hard to push the bike forward. (The back brake should lock the wheel but the bike will continue to move forward.) That way, you can quickly tell whether they are worthless or provide true security.
Had my rim brakes at least once lose a lot of efficacy during a large downpour and coaster brakes make a great backup for extra breaking power. They sure do like to lockup your rear wheel but that is still better than the alternative of only having very weak rear/front breaks.
Very accurate.
This is interesting, I recall having some of these as a kid.
I'd say the key drawback not mentioned is that, in many riding conditions (such as but not limited to riding when in close proximity to vehicles, riding in high wind, riding in proximity to severe drops or road discontinuities, riding with heavy loads, riding downhill with luggage encountering sharp bends, repositioning legs for a hard ascent, etc.) you cannot always freely alter your physical stance to apply additional pressure to the braking system (as it may upset other concerns) nor can you afford a short latency to reposition to your stronger leg before applying the brake (or a short burst of climbing on difficult terrain).
So while functional in most conditions, I'd say they are in fact objectively inferior in terms of latency and control and thus safety and utility in many realistic conditions.
What could be an improvement (and may have been made already) is a speed-gated clutch, that is to say, slow reverse is permissible but a burst above the gate speed enables braking. This could solve a minority of the issues in terms of control at the cost of complexity.
Concurring with what you say, I learned all of the obscure failure modes of coaster brakes the hard way. Today I would not put them on anything but a maybe a kids' bike or beach cruiser. You can't guarantee that your feet will be in the right place at the right time to stop the bike.
Among other failures, I've experienced coaster brake "fading" on a descent when my house was at the top of a hill.
Adding a front brake is an improvement but not a panacea. You really need reliable two-wheel braking. It's not just for redundancy but for actual control of the bike during hard braking.
Few cycle tourists seem to optimize for using navigation tools or holding cameras while riding. Oldschool Europeans used to mount maps on their handlebar bags, but I haven't seen that in yonks. It might be common on a short-hop or produced-for-youtube thing, but to my mind it's not really the same mental space as touring, which anyone who has done it would understand: long distances, often daily goals or pre-nav, strong engagement with topographic change and natural environment = ~no need for while-riding lookups. Sure, if the road is well-surfaced and there's nobody on it, or it's a phone-photographed quickie: go for it. But unless it's a fleeting moment, most people I know would stop, have a drink, perform any lookups, maybe take a photo, then set off again. F=ma. Luggage means you have relatively large m. Fiddling with your camera while riding can be a bad idea.